10. Life, the Universe and Everything — An Interview with Alan Chapman
Podcast: Download (35.2MB)
Alan Chapman co-runs a website, with Duncan Barford, called Open Enlightenment, a website that is, in their own words, ”dedicated to the honest and down-to-earth discussion of the very real and natural human phenomenon known as enlightenment.” I met up with Alan at his home in London to discuss the nitty-gritty of life, the universe and everything. Thanks to Sigur Rós for their generous permission to use their beautiful track starálfur.
May 31st, 2010 at 4:25 am
Checked out a video of this guy on his website and it is brutal. He talks of stages, a NEW consciousness, and consciousness of awareness. Poor young fraud.. so dualistic. As if there is a totally new consciousness that has never been there before, it is one Awareness, timeless, not new, may seem new, but its not totally new.
June 6th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
@Emerson: you are making the common mistake of conflating the event – awakening – of what is awakened to. What is awakened to is not any kind of thing, and that includes consciousness, nor is it old or new.
When it is realised that time emerges in the timeless, the timeless emerges in time. That’s all I have described. This is non-duality, not some kind of vague nothingness without distinction.
June 15th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
I think you’ve done a very good job of clarifying much of the mystical, at least in my point of view. The only thing I’d “watch out” for is when stating beliefs. People living in the limited version of reality tend to make associations to this word or concept that further tends to throw of their thinking. Perhaps, rather than stating what you believe (which you don’t do inthaty limited sense anymore, I’m sure), you might state something along the lines of “a way of thinking about it” or “one model for helping to organize your own thoughts” for finding your deeper truth…until the bottom falls out. Just an idea really. Thanks for the effort and ways of presenting such a simple yet complex subject.
June 16th, 2010 at 6:29 am
@Tom & Alan, Thanks for this wonderful interview.
I’m wary of ‘views’, but I have to say that I was nodding along to everything Alan was saying. I also loved the discussion on the transcendent experiences of astronauts – not an attempt to sidetrack the conversation in New Age territory – but rather, the fact that Awakening can and does happen to people everyday and in every available circumstance. Its all about perspective and being able to cover the planet earth with your thumb from a space shuttle – yes, that’s definitely potential for Awakening.
Why?
Because what is Awakened to, IS, quite literally, every single circumstance. There are no exceptions. With this in mind I like to say that the (apparent) ‘tight-rope’ is actually a million miles wide.
@Emerson, thanks for your comment! The words are not what’s being pointed at, the practice is not the Awakening. The words and view Alan uses are not what he’s pointing to. I like his metaphor of Awakening as a NEW consciousness. In a way, he’s right, if some new awareness (of awareness) does not occur, than there is nothing to talk about. If we want to talk about Awakening, then lets keep with that metaphor….waking up…from what? to what? Herein lies the myriad ‘ways’ to talk about it. When you know that the ‘ways’ are not the Awakening itself, then holding no ultimate position, there is no real need to defend or criticise another.
@Sokevsky, I empathise with your hesitance regarding stating beliefs. Words do have power; they CAN enlighten if the right word hits the right person at the right time, but if not, then its just more ‘other’ for the mind to move towards. More time, more seeking, more MISconception.
Making facts out of ‘concepts’ (eg. ‘Emptiness’ ‘Awareness’ ‘Nonduality’) can of course, mislead. All concepts need caveats. ‘Spiritual’ concepts even more so!
Maybe next time we can have a chat with Duncan about Magic, the Occult and the Paranormal?
:-)
June 17th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Really, thankyou Alan & Duncan & everyone who left a comment.
It was really enlughtening to listen to & you can tell you are all speaking from the heart as well as the mind.
Hope Many people get the opportunity to Here this.
Love to you all
x
Matthew
June 18th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
@Mike, Yes, it’s cool to have people sharing their perspectives. Who knows what words will fall to the soil and sprout? The difficulty of language (seeds) is using certain words at certain moments of potential and with certain people in a certain state of vulnerability or something thereof (soil). Until then, it seems more advantageous to go down the road throwing lit matches out the window hoping to burn down any and all weeds of the mind. People, who identify with their wolf-like egos at every door (hint hint!), tend to frown on being burned. Oh well, what are egos for? :~)
June 22nd, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Basically good clear discussion. An immediate alarm bell rings as soon as one implies that mankind is a special requirement for Spirit to awaken to Spirit. Mankind believing that he is important has led to all kinds of problems.
The clear realization is that ALL forms are THAT and that no particular form is actually separate from THAT or Oneness. Even the sense of being humbled by an insight is really the mind translating new data that is compared to the past through memory. Having lived in the belief of being separate and ‘selfish’, the instant that that is absent for whatever ‘reason’ the mind interprets this information as if an ‘awakening’ has taken place. No such thing has actually occurred, except in the translated experience.
Are you unaware right now? Of course not. Awareness is obvious – it is not a ‘thing’.
So awareness is – we can call it Wakefulness.
Everything appears upon this wakefulness.
Clarity is THAT upon which all events appear to take place.
The WHOLE is enlightened – the individual is ignorance yet it is made of nothing but light.
True understanding is silent and wordless.
That pure intelligence cuts away anything that the mind attempts to grasp or own.
What usually happens is that the mind jumps in and starts to claim the experience.
All this takes place in uninterrupted experiencing, where no entity abides.
Now this is why no one has ever been able to convey what enlightenment is, apart from telling a story. The story usually leads to a concept that ‘I can transmit’ this experience to ‘another’. In truth there is no ‘other’. Non duality is ONE without a second.
Now many speak about this AS IF they have claimed it but it is all bollocks.
Many teachers are said to be very clear but it is actually obvious that they are not clear at all. In fact these so-called teachers are a ’cause’ why seekers are kept in ignorance. The conceitedness of most gurus and teachers is quite obvious to those who take no interest in them. Those who have been hypnotized by these teachers cannot see how the pointing from these teachers is just keeping them in bondage. It is so ironic and laughable, it borders on a deep sadness that life can appear to play such havoc with itself.
It is ALL appearance and it is all valid in the appearance. Phenomena is that which appears to be. And the sense of becoming is mind bound consciousness. There is absolutely no becoming in BEING. One Being – One consciousness – One Awareness. I am THAT.
June 24th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
“In fact these so-called teachers are a ’cause’ why seekers are kept in ignorance. The conceitedness of most gurus and teachers is quite obvious to those who take no interest in them. Those who have been hypnotized by these teachers cannot see how the pointing from these teachers is just keeping them in bondage. It is so ironic and laughable, it borders on a deep sadness that life can appear to play such havoc with itself.”
This is so, so true and yes it is sad :( And in many ways this site is an attempt to counter the ‘specialness’ of revered gurus and coveted spiritual states.
We’ve said it before and I’ll say it again,
What is known as ‘realising the mystery’, is nothing but breaking through to grab an ordinary person’s life.
The extraordinary thing is not the awakening itself but that it seems so often we have to do this “breaking through” to reach. Why would anyone need to “break through” to grab their ordinariness, that which they most fundamentally and naturally are!?
June 25th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Perhaps “Enlightenment” is an evolutionary process.
June 25th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
I’m very much inclined to agree with that Ingrid. For no other reason than the slippery fluidity it gives to a state that we so dearly yearn to be able to grab with two hands and have never leave our grasp!
June 25th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
@tombh. You do need to be careful therefore who you interview for this site :-)
The very person who you interviewed for podcast number 10 (ie this one) sent the following reply to the question “What does it mean to be a student of yours”.. Here is the reply I received
As a teacher, I offer:
1). Technical instruction in methods from many traditions: vipassana, shamatha, centring prayer, zazen, self enquiry, ritual magick, etc.
2). Coaching in terms of the spiritual and psychological terrain encountered as a practitioner.
3). Structured training and motivation.
4). A new development and what I believe is the first of its kind, a comprehensive view of awakening that not only encapsulates and explains every possible tradition of enlightenment, but illustrates the various possibilities for pathological development in this field and demonstrates exactly what a healthy view of enlightenment (and by extension the world) looks like. This view provides a contemporary context for understanding our purpose and the meaning of life.
So I’m willing to teach people with one or more of the following aims:
1). to begin and maintain a dedicated practice, even if just to enjoy the health benefits.
2). to become enlightened.
3). to understand our place in the world, the enlightenment traditions, and what the phenomenon means for us both personally and species wide.
I use the ‘charge what they earn’ model, so I make per hour what you make per hour (if you earn £12 per hour, so do I). My time can include e-mail conversations, phone calls, one-on-one meetings, etc. A minimum charge is one hour per month for practice diary review.”
On the neverending path of trying to find THIS , I would have probably been sucked in by that. But on this apparent path you discard all the bullshit sometimes only to pick up more only to drop alot more along the way…But whatever way you twist or turn that response…it is saying that this is not it…Something else is it and using specific methods are a way to become it.
Does it matter that Alan talks like this when probably his intentions are to “meet the seeker where they are”…I suppose it matters and it doesn’t matter.
I am just a fan of no bullshit.
I recommend that Alan listens to Kenneth Madden on conscious.tv to hear a message that is uncompromising and Alan could well find that the appreciation he feels he needs from his students could well be found in the delivery of a simple clear and hopeless message that “there is no way to the recognition that this here is it in whatever form it takes whether that is seen or unseen”. He may well find that love is the reaction to a message that offers nothing. Or indeed anger.
Not sure why I felt the need to write this. Perhaps being ordinary is a lovely title for a site and in my heart of hearts i know it can only be ordinary life that is the mystery and nothing more and having spoken to Mike I know there is no agenda there from him and from you Tom without knowing anything about you. There are so many out there with an agenda. Leo Hortong says “The heart cannot but speak of that which makes it sing” as his reason (if any) for talking about nothin!!!..
Does it matter? Not one tiny bit and neither will a defensive reaction to this if that happens.
Frank
Freedom is just another word for nothin left to lose
June 26th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
@Frank: Fair points! Hey, fancy Skyping sometime?
July 22nd, 2010 at 11:38 pm
@Gilbert: Get over it, you are special. A rock just can’t do what a human can i.e. be conscious of THAT.
@sucker4seeking: I take it you find nothing questionable about sending me an e-mail to post the response here as a means of demonstrating how I’m full of shit?
‘Does it matter? Not one tiny bit and neither will a defensive reaction to this if that happens.’
So not only am I misguided and ‘seeking appreciation’, but any response to this must be a ‘defensive reaction’ and nothing else?
What a spectacular demonstration of a lack of integrity and mindfulness.
August 6th, 2010 at 12:59 am
Alan you’re a laugh. I fell around the place laughing. The poor whistleblower always gets a bad rap.
“Lack of mindfulness”. That was singlehandly the nicest insult i have ever received. Thich Nhat Hanh couldn’t have put it better.
I never said you were ‘full of shit’ btw. You said that. There was an implication that you were offering methods to try and Be a teacher and offer students a method to get to here. Yes a method to get to here. Why would it make any difference to you that I posted what you were saying here on this lovely website. It is not like I altered anything you said.
If you put a warning on all your correspondance ala: “Warning – All methods serve no purpose. there is no purpose to life as life is its own purpose. There is nowhere to get to because you are already home. there is no such thing as enlightenement, there are only experiences. You don’t have a life to make better because You are life. You are completey and utterly without exception in the passenger seat. I can show you methods that might make your life more comfortable but they will have nothing to do with discovering your true nature. I can talk about enlightenement but all words have nothing to do with it. There is nothing I Alan can do. But knowing all that it is still fun to try. So lets try together by not trying.”
Ha I think i am going to put a complaint into the advertising standards about false claims that enlightenment can be achieved… I can see the headlines… “Advertising standards to clamp down on spiritual teachers”…
You have to admit it would be a little bit funny…Just an inzy wincy bit..
August 8th, 2010 at 5:29 am
@sucker4seeking, brilliant response and I agree attaining enlightenment is false advertising :)
August 11th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
@sucker4seeking: so you’re a ‘whistleblower’? Exactly what am I doing that is immoral and covert?
The problem isn’t where you posted our correspondence, it’s the fact that you did, and for for the reasons you did it. It’s underhand and nasty. Trying to shift the focus from your lack of good manners with the ‘warning’ is again an example of your inability to bear witness to your own behaviour and deal with it.
If you are really interested in enlightenment, I’ve made a little video that might elucidate exactly why your view of awakening (and yours too Ronna) is problematic at best:
http://openenlightenment.org/?p=497
I accept card, cheques and cold hard cash.
August 11th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
@ Alan
Ok Alan.I am whatever you say I am.
All the best.
August 26th, 2010 at 5:45 am
@sucker4seeking
I don’t think being passive-aggressive will help anything. I can personally attest that Alan and Duncan are the real deal. With their teachings I have crossed the abyss and attained the grade of Magister Templi. Enlightenment is possible, and thanks to them I’m on the road. I recommend that you go to their site (thebaptistshead.co.uk – it has their practical instructions, progress reports, and a forum full of people like me. Even if you aren’t interested in Magick it’s a good resource for true stories of mystic wonder). No one is asking you to “believe” anything. By doing certain things certain results follow. Whether it is a sigil to get rent money or Holy Guardian Angel work to get enlightened makes no difference.