27. The Line Of Enlightenment
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How is Enlightenment actually defined? Does it exist in and of itself outside of the general consensus of a few experienced people? This might be a somewhat provocative subject but I feel it raises some important questions.
September 7th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
I like it! Glad that you clarified this in so far as to demark this as the Line of Enlightenment! It really puts the concept into the light!
September 8th, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Thanks Ben :)
September 7th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
I think you’re coming at it from too subjective an angle by assuming that enlightenment can be conceptualised (1) in terms of its effect on a person; and (2) in terms of the enjoyment of a state (‘lack of suffering’, ‘possession of knowledge about the universe’, or whatever). An alternative position is to define enlightenment in terms of what can be seen, rather than in terms of the experience or the effects of seeing. We have some pretty good models from the various traditions for determining what can and cannot be seen at various stages along the path. Nepotism might indeed encourage some to regard themselves wrongly as being in a particular place, but simple self-honesty is a very effective corrective – where exercised.
If the universe has engineered the difference between plants and animals, and between animals and humans, then why not the increasingly inclusive perception of Truth that we call enlightenment?
Yes, all beings suffer. But enlightenment refers to what the awakened person *sees*, not to what she thinks or feels or does about it. And what she sees is that it’s not about her at all! ;-)
September 8th, 2011 at 7:17 pm
Thanks Duncan,
I’ll be honest and say that on the whole I do take the traditional line, that there is awakening and that there are awakened people and that awakening can be defined generally along the lines that you describe. Also I’ll say that I’ve had specific experiences that I place above others and may even be classified as awakening experiences.
So really, I mention this Nepotistic Boys’ Club subject really just to constructively stir things up. And I think there’s genuine mileage in it.
There are quite a few ‘clubs’ that profess some sort of awakened dimension; Buddhism, Sufism, Advaita etc. On the whole it seems that these clubs can agree broadly on what this awakening thing is. Also, I think it’s good to be transparent about what humans are capable of.
What I feel like I’m trying to point to though is the very real possibility that there isn’t actually a perennial feature that runs through all definitions of awakening. And not only that, but that these various clubs set the bar for ‘genuine awakening’ at different places. Why would they do that? I think it needs to be said that the whole thing might actually just be a horrid mess, influenced by nepotistic forces as much as spiritual depth.
Meanwhile, the true perennial values that we celebrate, like friendship, openness, humility and patience continue to deliver the highest value regardless of where we place them on the map of spiritual insight.
I’m just advocating the devil really :)
September 7th, 2011 at 11:13 pm
I didn’t think you’d put the line where you did. Everyday awareness is enlightenment. Nothing special, just being ordinary.
This is what makes enlightenment so resistant to being pinned down. To the enlightened, it is truly ordinary. When in delusion we find it so extra-ordinary and so alluring that we chase after it’s shadow.
Thanks for sharing your ideas.
September 8th, 2011 at 7:20 pm
“I didn’t think you’d put the line where you did.” Oh, I feel like I’ve let the Being Ordinary side down :’(
In my defence though, I felt like was trying to argue against the implied lines that often float around spiritual dialogue.
Thanks for your encouragement Will :)
September 7th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
well, i guess someone ought to ask kew wilber to come up with a list of criterias to check if one is enlightened. doh! im 2 points away from being enlightened. Gotta hit those ‘I am isness whateverness dancing nothingness witnessing emptiness’ books again. ‘sucks. Ha!
September 7th, 2011 at 11:32 pm
No, but more seriously, there is a lot to say about this subject, but it would require thinking and all that. And it wouldnt fit in this small box anyways. We could talk about the fact that some people are already living very close to the Truth without having had any ‘event’. We could talk about the fact that there might be different ‘degrees’ of enlightenment. Maybe not all ‘events’ are equal etc etc, but that would possibly ruin the enjoyment of it all, and possibly make certain people doubt again and seek more ‘deepening’. So again, that seems to be a job for the Wilber since for some reason he seems to enjoy thinking about all this.
September 7th, 2011 at 11:35 pm
Is there an old man hiding inside of Tom?
September 7th, 2011 at 11:37 pm
Enlightenment is not a state or experience. It is the core essence of what you are. Enlightenment is the ‘realization’ I am not my body or mind and not anything perceivable or conceivable.
If enlightenment is a state to aspire to,then how will one know that one has arrived? Some pre-existing condition must already be there to KNOW….and that is the essence I speak of. So everybody is already potentially enlightened, they just have not realized their true nature. The realization could come on suddenly or appear to be gradual, but the essence of who or what they are is timeless and the realization of this fact is always open and available in the present – NOW.
September 8th, 2011 at 12:08 am
thinking about it, all enlightenment is is a return to a natural way of living. Big deal. Maybe some people manifest super powers (siddhis) and can induce trance states on command etc , so their experience is a little more extraordinary. Thats not my case, as of today anyways.
September 8th, 2011 at 12:25 am
If enlightenment is not a state or experience,then how is it known? It isn’t “known”! It is the KNOWING. Everybody is KNOWING that they are, they exist. On one level this is very ordinary – ‘everyday ordinary’ and simultaneously this is mind blowing ordinary. I say mind blowing because to realize you are NOT what is perceived, then that which is perceiving or knowing can never be a perceived or a known. The implications are stunning and psychological suffering and attachment are radically reduced to almost nothing…
September 8th, 2011 at 12:37 am
Hi Suki. Ya. I guess this ‘realization’ is common to all of us (us meaning those who have awakened aka super heroes). But the fact is that on a day to day basis, identification with mind and body still happens after awakening, its not possible to function in society in a perpetual state of oneness. So saying you are not the body and the brain might not be totally correct. The body is still there for this lifetime, so is the brain. In silence, you are nothing, but for the most part, life continues with this body and brain when involved in day to day activities ( but yes, there is peace and silence behind). And my point is..oh ya, so i guess one could make some tests of for example insulting you, treating you of a liar etc and measure how much reaction you get on different ‘awakened’ individual. Some individuals would identify with it for a few seconds, some for more, some not at all, and to different degrees (measure heart rates etc). So i guess one could run a bunch of tests like that putting ‘awakened’ being in very stressful and extreme situations and do some measurement and measure ‘detachment’. I dont know, its just a theory. Gotta admit it does sound a little wacky.
September 8th, 2011 at 12:38 am
just so your last post. So ya, it is this ‘almost nothing’ that would be measured in my wacky experiment.
September 8th, 2011 at 12:45 am
wait, lets give it a go. “Suki, from reading your posts, it seems like u are really full of yourself etc etc” any reaction?
September 8th, 2011 at 12:55 am
another experiment, and also a wish actually : i would like every single ‘guru’ out there to put up the most ridiculous pic of themself on their Facebook profile. That would be a good indication of how unattached to their self image they are.
September 8th, 2011 at 12:59 am
anyone up for it? im talking main profile pic. Mine is ready. My facebook is tristan ainscough. msg me if anyone up for it. we will start a trend and sort out the fakers.
September 8th, 2011 at 1:02 am
forgot to mention but we are 2 bearing the same name (2 tristan ainscough). Im the one who looks wise and enlightened, and fairly good looking i’ve been told haaaa ( by my mom)
September 8th, 2011 at 3:00 am
@Tristan
Not denying the day to day functioning of the body-brain mechanism and the unique life circumstances that arise for each of us, not at all. In fact if anything all is embraced. The simple realization is that I am not that. The world, the body, ideas, emotions, etc. appear to what I am and are not separate from what I am. But, what I am is beyond mind,body ,world and all appearance. Awareness(yes,this ordinary awareness) or my knowing nature has never appeared, yet everything appears to or in awareness. Your own everyday awareness or knowing nature is enlightenment, nothing special. If something transcends your awareness or knowing nature, then how can it be known? Paradoxically, the knowing or awareness can’t be known, if they could then something else would be the knowing nature – you dig?
P.S. – how do you photograph awareness or your knowing nature?
September 8th, 2011 at 4:52 am
No “line”, no spectra of quanta upon which it is set. “Enlightenment” as an experience or attainment in that way is only an aspect of mind. A conceptualization, or set thereof, different for everyone despite any shared cultural descriptors one might adopt (attach to/be hindered by). Mind is but an aspect of the totality of experiencing (presence, awareness, unfolding, process, whatever) that could be called “enlightenment” when a word is needed as a pointer. All points to this. Realization is a shift, a change of relation. Recognizing (remembering) what I like to call “The Grand Obviousness”, the end of lines and attainments and such in awareness, those things still apparently arising in thought forms when interacting – but not separate, just reflections/aspects/expressions of…
September 8th, 2011 at 5:08 am
Tristan wrote: “its not possible to function in society in a perpetual state of oneness.”
Oneness is not a “state”. There is noting separate from oneness to perpetuate. This separation/creation of some perpetual mental state apart from ordinariness is the just another expression of the same error/hindrance/delusion.
To maintain the irony and idiocy of trying to define enlightenment, I’ll quote myself: “Enlightenment is the never ending process of the extra falling off the extraordinary, revealing the ordinary.”
September 8th, 2011 at 8:34 am
@suki, i dig, especially the term ‘beyond’.
@Grey. I understand what you are saying. So replace the word oneness with total silence of the mind then. The ‘no state’ state. Because when word are spoken or thaughts happen, yes, theoretically its still oneness because you have seen that it is, but..if you couldnt separate your body from not your body, you would end up doing funny things in daily life hehe. Anyways, all this is getting a little umm too serious to my taste. : )
September 8th, 2011 at 8:40 am
@Grey, i would replace the word ‘enlightenment’ with ‘awakening’ in your quote. Because i think the word ‘awakening’ has this ‘process’ feel to it. But thats just me.
Thinking more..all states are ‘no state’ states before labeled..mm cant be bothered to dig more into this. Good day everyone. : )
September 8th, 2011 at 8:47 am
oh, and im still waiting for ‘awakened’ peeps to enter my ‘ridiculous pic of myself’ thing. Would i be judgmental by saying that there’s a little ‘stuck upness’ in the air?
September 8th, 2011 at 9:04 am
ya i mean, humility and humor ( and self derision) go a long way, especially if one’s ‘goal’ (urge) is to help other peeps to awakened. I think ‘other people’ need to see that awakening is not a big deal, that even after awakening you can make a fool of yourself, that we basically are nothing different. That can potentially gap the imaganiray gap that people have created in their mind between ‘an awakened’ person and not awakened. Anyways, thats my take on it. I personally dont want to get too serious about this thing that is nothing and wordless. Also, as soon as one uses the brain/mind to describe it and discuss it, one makes it his/her own in some ways, with one’s personal intpretation/description of it. Not to mention that the medium is not faultless in chosing the most accurate terms/words.
September 8th, 2011 at 9:14 am
oh and Tom, i really like the ‘ordinariness’ about you. You seem like such a sweet and humble guy. You are already the old wise man that you will be.
September 8th, 2011 at 9:24 am
ya i mean, i think it is fair to say that by wanting to defend one’s point of view of what IT is, one is identifying with a sense of ‘my view’ on IT and functioning in ego mode. So i think i will try not to discuss THIS anymore (in the future). I will just expose my take on it and let others expose their take on it.
September 8th, 2011 at 10:10 am
Robert: “Hi, I am isness and you?”
Bob. : ” I’m Bob”
Robert: “who is Bob?”
Bob. : “ok, my name is Bob”
Robert: “who is this ‘Bob’ you are refering to?”
Bob. : (sighs) “…and you, who are you?”
Robert: “I am nobody and nothing. Isness Isnessing. Emptiness dancing on a fluffy cloud of witnessing emptiness. I am the Alpha and the Omega. The yin and the yang. The beginning and the end. I am God manifestation.”
Bob then proceeds and slaps Robert in the face.
Bob. :”and now, who are you?”
Robert:”I am pain and anger”
September 8th, 2011 at 7:22 pm
Tristan, Suki and K Grey; thanks for your comments :)
September 9th, 2011 at 7:53 am
http://www.pragmaticdharma.com/2011/01/multi-dimensional-approach-to-awakening/
I tried to think of an articulate way to respond to this nicely rambling video post earlier, but was quite unable. I then by chance (go Deepak Chopra with Sinchronicity) came across a nice blog post by the yank Vincent Horn on the topic and realised he’d articulated what I was unable to spit out. He uses an analogy from Jack Kornfield of all people, which describes awakening/enlightenment as like a crystal, as having many faces. That is you can awaken on one face of the crystal, but the other sides may be super ordinary, but in the dull Tesco’s sense of ordinary, and enlightenment thus would not be seen as some end goal achieved through being able to remain present and open in the present all the time but would include an ability to integarte awakened action into that presence, fearlessness, compassionate action, and so forth. It woudl then be more multi-faceted than say an Ingram or AF conept of awakened.
He says it better than I do and probably avoids Tesco’s analogies, so follow the link and have ye a gander.
I do think though that guys such as Trungpa, who although controversial seemed pretty enlightened to me, have an added element that goes beyond what the hords on Dharma Overgroudn seem to have achieved; not to say they haven’t achieved adegree of awakeneing however. Good on em in fact.
By the way are you Being Ordinary chaps from Brizzle? That accent seems very, very familiar. I used to be a Bristol & Bath boy you see.
September 11th, 2011 at 3:34 am
Thanks Matthew,
Yeah I actually read Vincent’s article at the time, it’s a great article, well, he’s a great guy. Ha I like your Tesco analogy!
Yeah, I’m in Bristol, Mike used to be, but he’s on the Isle of Man now. Where are you?
tom :)
September 11th, 2011 at 4:36 am
Tescos’, yeah, it’s an important cultural emblem for Bristish society!
I actually moved to Trieste, in northeast Italy quite a few year’s back for love, but spent most of my life living in godd ol’ Brizzle.
So, what did you think about what Vince had to say? It could be considered as a reply to the bearded one’s proposal.
What do you guys think abotu the role of intuition in all of this? Vince articulated what was an intuitive sense for me.
September 12th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
And Tesco is an even more important symbol for Bristol, it caused riots here a few months back. The store in Stoke’s Croft has 24 hour security and bullet proof glass!
Italy eh! Wow :) *jealous*
Vince (or rather Jack Kornfield’s) analogy of the crystal of awakening I think is excellent. It really helps dealing with awakening in a less black and white sense. However, the way Vince talks about awakening still implies that awakening is some certain, immutable thing, which is precisely the perspective I’m attempting to question here.
There are so many people that profess this awakening thing, but how do we know that they aren’t just mutually supporting each other’s ideas about it?
How do we know that the whole thing isn’t just a club, or a clique? For example, imagine two awakened people met each other and through exchanging their various stories understood each other to be awakened. Now, these two people depend on each other to continue to maintain the idea of awakening in order that they can define themselves as awakened. If there is no independent and external body to judge the achievement of awakening, then the mutual back-rubbing means of definition has to be a real possibility.
That relates to your point about intuition. The whole awakening thing is nothing but intuition. There is no infallible means of defining awakening, which I actually think is fine, so as long people never imply that it is anything but that. It’s totally okay to have clubs of awakened people as long as we all know that these clubs are based on the members’ intuition of their own and each other’s awakenings.
Yeah?
September 10th, 2011 at 3:15 pm
It seems to me that the different qualities associated with awakening (Love, wisdom..) manifest at different degrees in each individual. For some unkown reason, each individual will have one of those qualities emphasized more in his/her particular body/mind mechanism. Some will manifest primarly loving kindness and compassion, others raging wisdom, irreverence and wrath. The reason why is a Mistery.One could try to elaborate a theory on this (based on karmic predispositions/personaliy etc) but I think it would be a waste of time. There is no one archetype that fits all awakened being. Even though all Awakened people do have ALL of those qualities present in them, the fact that one or more usually manifests predominantly throughout their person makes this manifestation of awakening unique in each one of us. Not one is better than the other one. Different people resonate with different manifestation of this awakening. And also, some of us (most of us?) have the ability to switch from emphasising one trait to emphasizing another, spontaneously ( I do). The idea of having to ‘work on’ awakening all the facets of this diamond after the initial awakening occured doesnt resonate in me. Some individual will naturally have the possibility of emphasizing any facet at will, others will stick with manifesting predominantly 1 facet. One individual might progressively develop an ability to ‘work with’ more facets. But this is a natural process that happens (or not) spontaneously. Anyways, thats my take on it. Good day everyone.
September 11th, 2011 at 3:35 am
Yeah, there’s a hellavu lot of variation out there!
September 11th, 2011 at 5:01 pm
@Tom, for sure from UG to the hugging mother..quiet a gap there. Eventhough i’m guessing that UG could also manifest deep Love and compassion at times, and the hugging mother wrath. But those were not the primarly manifestation they would ‘work’ with.
September 10th, 2011 at 3:23 pm
But really, what it all might come down to is just the initial personality that was present. My personality has always been very rich and hard to pin point. Never had that much cohesion to tristan. Can be sweet like a kid, wise, or confrontational and ‘judgmental’. But im getting into my personal life story here, and who cares haha.
September 11th, 2011 at 6:27 am
I’d say there is vast variation in the content of Awareness but not in Awareness(context)itself. Mundane to ultra sublime expericences would qualify as content, in fact I think any experience would qualify as content. The context is not part of the spectrum, but rather the content is. Even consciousness is content, since we are aware of it. What is aware of consciousness? I am aware this question is generated within consciousness, but where else can it arise? Since context is always there and must be there, then potentially everyone is already *enlightened or they have access to the re-cognition to their true nature or context. I understand that this may be an over simplification, but I think the gist of it is that.
*Enlightenment to me means your true essence or nature and is NOT an experience.
September 11th, 2011 at 7:01 am
Essentially you already are that, you can’t be anything but your true essence or nature anyway. But, the strong identifications with thought constructs, ie; beliefs, world-views, the “me” construct and other thought entanglements keep us at the level of the mind. And the mind itself is nothing more than a thought and you can’t really find thought…all a deep hypnosis of the greatest magnitude. By seeing what you are NOT, one gets clarity on what one IS. And what one IS…you can’t say…
September 12th, 2011 at 7:09 pm
Yes, I totally agree with your definitions of Enlightenment but how do we deal with the nitty gritty realities of the hierarchies of power that we see on the spiritual scene. How do we deal with the fact that most teachers have had significant spiritual experiences in their past?
September 12th, 2011 at 10:46 pm
Experiences are experiences, whether they are the “ordinary” everyday or the so called “spiritual” experiences say like UG and JK Krishnamurti. Experiences are subjective and it is impossible to experience what “another” has experienced. The fact that we can experience anything at all or there should be existence that has manifested and we are conscious of it, is a profound and miraculous event in itself!
Being is the wonderous miracle. You have to be, before anything is experienced, yes? And being is not an experience. The only value experience has, is in the present and experiences of the past have to be recreated in the present from memory. Does the past exist and has it ever existed? The memories of the “past” are a present energy phenomena arising in awareness or consciousness. The facticity of past spiritual experiences or any past experience is on shaky ground. If kundalini arises it will be now, if astral travel happens it will be now, if levitation happens it will be now, even time travel will be now…..if I have a headache it will be now, if I need to go to the toilet it will be now, if I need to eat it will be now.
I don’t know if this answers your question or not.
September 12th, 2011 at 11:59 pm
Questioner: Did Maharaj not have any kundalini experiences during the course of his sadhana?
Maharaj: Yes! For me during sadhana I had many experiences, but I never became involved in any of these. Kundalini involves the body, but it is my knowledge and fundamental belief that I am not the body, and therefore whatever experiences there are I am not concerned wiht them. My path is the path of Knowledge where I give no importance to any experiences.
Q: These experiences must have some value?
M: The have only relative value and no absolute value. When you don’t have the consciousness of I am, do you have any problems?
Q: No!
M: Since you want to know the final truth, the birth and death I don’t accept, so if Baba Muktananda is birthless and deathless will he bother about kundalini? So in the final analysis you don’t need it, so why is it to be taught? All yogas and practices come throught the consciousness of I am only, which is itself an illusion.
Whatever is happening in this illusion, yoga, kundalini, or anything else, is relative and time-bound. Why do you bother about all these yogas, instead of trying to know your original state, which is without any attributes?
I negate all the upanishads, and I don’t accept the Scriptures because all these things were written with the attribute of I am. They don’t describe my true state, which is attribute-less and beyond words and concepts. They may point to my true state but they don’t reach it as I am beyond all relative events. On the Jnana yoga path one knows that one was always free, so if a person has this knowledge, then he will not follow the other paths of bhakti, kama, kundalini yoga, etc. To know that this is not what I am is true renunciation. When you become what I am, you automatically reject everything.
This quote is from the book ‘Gleanings from Nisagadatta’ by Mark West – pg 84. (Excellent book!) I thought this quote may be relevant to the discussion at hand.
September 14th, 2011 at 6:16 am
This quote is precisely relevant to my point :) In fact, it very closely relates to the whole point of this Being Ordinary site; therefore, it doesn’t matter what your experience is, profound and ordinary are both just as worthy.
September 15th, 2011 at 6:39 pm
Hey,
To be honest I didnt realy understand what you were saying in the clip, did you mean the ‘levels’ that ive heard people talk about, sounds like it.
Gotta say not really that interested in it, too headyfor me.
When you guys were talking about personalities tho it reminded me of this guy I came across on youtube yesterday. I found him a very interesting and entertaining personality and I loved how his expression was theatrical at times. He talks about the regular things (but shares them differently to what iv seen b4-everyones different ay), answers questions and does satsangs. I love seeing new expressions of this, shows that this is not personal or dependant on specific personallity traits. I love seeing people enjoying the tremendous energy that we naturally have access to. I love what he says in the clip named ‘are you being had’- what someone said about clubs reminded me of this specificly. BenjaminSmythe is his name.Hes also done some cool clips on relationship stuff that ive really enjoyed and shared with friends,hes really had me laughing sometimes with tears, which for me I enjoy the playful aspect of this. But then….. when I really look at calling something ‘the playful aspect’doesnt make sense because its all playful ‘its all entertainment’.Hope you enjoy.
Its nice to see a visual on this site, nice addition, would love to see more, will check out youtube. Cheers x
September 17th, 2011 at 2:28 am
I’m not really sure what I was on about now either. Are you Enlightened?
Yeah I’ve seen a couple of videos of Benjamin Smythe, he seems very interesting.
Maybe I’ll do another video sometime.
Thanks Rieka x
September 16th, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Hi Tom, great questions, great replies. Interesting to look at the question/s itself. Possible that the project to objectify ‘enlightenment’ is itself misguided because either it can’t be done, or ‘enlightenment’ is by definition the ONLY thing that can’t be objectified with any final authority by the conceptual mind (unlike eg. most basic dimensions of natural science, or anything much else), so that (
September 16th, 2011 at 10:02 pm
cont.. as you know) mind is only partially/relatively able to make judgements/ assesments of the value/levels/authenticity etc. enlightenment claims. You ask the question: “how do we deal with the nitty gritty realities of the hierarchies of power that we see on the spiritual scene?” One response, similarly, is why should we, and what would that achieve? Again, the failure of the project of ultimate objectivity is not able to finallt deal with the phenomena. It is unfolding precisely as it is, as you know its suchness is immaculately unimpeachable. Each will negotiate the twists and turns of ‘enlightenment karma’ as they will. Om Sarva Mangalam!
September 17th, 2011 at 2:34 am
Yeah, ironic really that Enlightenment is the one thing that can’t be objectified. Actually to even say that it *can’t* be objectified is a kind of objectification!
Ultimately I guess, the reason I ask these questions, is because it’s personally an issue for me. I feel the need to somehow counter some of the prevailing attitudes and implied definitions we receive. It’s good to reconsider widely held assumptions every now and then :)
Happiness To All!
September 21st, 2011 at 12:10 pm
Hey Tom, I listened to this a second time round and it sounded much more interesting this time, sooo funny how that can happen.
I got the point you were trying to make and have wondered about that myself, some interesting points. I think that the words we use are extremely limited and I agree that there actually is no such line, it just ‘seems’ that way to the mind trying to make sense, comparing and all of that. Well thats what it looks like from here.
Cheers,x
September 22nd, 2011 at 6:13 pm
Yeah, I think that’s the point I was on about. We all go on about Enlightenment, awakening, liberation and all that, but what are the internal benchmarks that we rely on to assert someone’s spiritual status!? I don’t know!
But this is what the site’s about I guess, having a good old chinwag about it :D
tom x
September 22nd, 2011 at 9:52 pm
In my case, my mind is still very active (as it always has been). That was even the case during the Bliss state that lasted a few days. But i can at will come back to a no thought state. Depression and sadness is entirely gone. Boredom still happens at times but thats because i am still readjusting my life style to that Realization, and since im a married guy, im not free to just do whatever i want. But there is acceptance to that boredom. Ignorance, greed, selfishness do make me angry at times and is expressed in the now. Nothing clings. My guts seem to have been removed from my body..anyways, thats my experience of IT, as of today. Everyone reacts differently according to one’s personality, i believe.
September 22nd, 2011 at 10:00 pm
Also i’m at ease in any situation. All fear is gone, including that of death. If my mom were to die tomorrow, im not sure i would shade a tear..which is a little odd i guess. I dont think expressing grief in the now (crying) is a sign of not ‘being There’ though, but everyone is different: from total detachment to total Love and compassion for All.
September 22nd, 2011 at 10:11 pm
thinking about this fear thing..thats not correct actually. All fear of life and my future is gone, but if a big rat were to show its face in my bed, i would surely be dancing and running like a little girl : )
September 28th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Yeah, I agree about the expressing according to ones personality and even the ‘process of awakening, or whatever we want to call it.The things that are seen (and not seen), the feelings, the thoughts that seemed to torment me (which also seemed to have a common thread of inadequacies I had experienced in the past), the habits of attention to the imaginary and then physical worlds- keeping the sence of seperateness extremely overwhelming at times, the creation of entities which stood at my bedside till morning threatening enhialation etc… Going to sleep was a nightmare for a while, till I realised that it was attention to holding/resisting the fear (and wanting it desperately not to be there), that created the images to imerge and feel so real(out of my darkest deepest closet mind you)it seemed that when the fear was allowed to be free the dark image was no longer was no longer keeping me captive.The feeling of fear was extremely raw as i know many have experienced also.
I can remember at times thinking, Wow this is sooo perfect for ‘me’, it couldnt be any more perfect! it was such a releif when it was seen.
Wow who knows what goes on eh?
Part of me is glad im not in a relationship, as it seems I need I alot of quiet and space to explore this ‘process?’but then on an equal token it would be perfect if I were, and what comes up would also be perfect seen or not seen, blah blah blah…
Anyway its been fun (more so now than b4 ha ha, not such heightened sensetivety),
Nice one Tristan,(bout the rat) its all about now isnt it, and isnt it beautiful that fear (or movement) can be free to arrise and move and (thank god) moveaway, (if allowed) :).
Hey Tom, is Mike still part of the Being Ordinary crew? You guys make a good team.
Thanks for letting me write this stuff here, it feels good to share.
Rieka,x
September 28th, 2011 at 9:21 pm
cool Reika. For me, i didnt have to go through this very deep fear of ‘dying when surrendering it all’ nor physical pain that seem to manifest itself in some people possibly due to kundalini rising. And i guess the ‘process’ started a few years back but ‘events’ were disgarded at that time and therefore not acknowledged as being anything. The ‘Big kaboum’ is recent, 10 weeks now so i like to say that im doing my baby steps in a fully awakened life. I had a coupke days of doubts after coming down from the Bliss state during which time i could barely function and was literaly not in my body anymore. Very hard to describe obviously. I havnt really gotten back fullu into my body in some ways, and i guess that state is common to all of us that have awakened. The feeling of just having a gap instead of a head.
Yeah, great to share here. It is the only board where i write (outside facebook). I’ve awakened partly thks to this show so i’ll stick around. Mike has been extremely helpful via email in helping me making sense of it all, or more accuratly letting me make sense of it all by writing it down.
Looking forward to the next show.
1 Love
October 1st, 2011 at 7:16 am
Interesting youtube offering Tombh … likewise the commentary. Notwithstanding the wonderful contributions from the feminine half (Karen Richards, et al), it has often been a curiosity to me just how predominantly male-driven much of this phenomenon appears to be — not to mention the commentary. Can’t be just a testosterone thing. Perhaps just our culture’s left-brained need to label, define and categorize everything. To me the ‘Tao’ sums it up nicely: That which can’t be named, defined, confined, qualified, etc. Whatever it is, one ‘knows’ it when it happens, however unique the experiential time-bound unfolding may be. IMHO, words and conceptual discourse become pretty much moot, as the unspoken language of the heart is enough.
But granted, not so easily conveyed in this limited format, except perhaps a poetry.
Btw, thanks to ‘Being Ordinary’ for being just as it is.
October 2nd, 2011 at 5:00 am
@Rieka: Yeah Mike is still very much part of the BO team, pleased you reckon we work well together :D Share all you want, I’m so pleased we offer you that xxx
@Tristan: Didn’t know we were such an influence on you. Great!
@Danajo, thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it :) Ha, yep, that’s so true; that which can be spoke of is not the true way. I agree, poetry has a certain way of bypassing that restriction sometimes. Gratitude for your gratitude :)
October 5th, 2011 at 9:41 pm
an influence? You are my gurus. haha, just kidding but ya, the Realization happened after stumbling on your show and exchanging emails with mike. Zahir (show 25?) also did it for me. I had kind of given up on the search by then but decided to type ‘advaita’ on my ipad out of curiosity and ur show poped up. 3 weeks later, IT happened, the burden was lifted for ever. Many thanks for being out there.
October 5th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
@Danajo: you are very right, but i have this drive, for the moment anyways, to clear some things up about what its NOT, since i thought for such a long time that i was unworthy of IT, that i was not righteous enough etc. Also, i love to take the mysticism out of it by showing my stupid side : )
October 5th, 2011 at 9:47 pm
and if no one never spoke about IT through books and podcast, i would probably still be living a life of illusion/delusion
October 12th, 2011 at 3:52 am
Funny when you stumble across things at such a timely time. Having an awesome evening reading this. My mind can grab this so badly it is ridiculous. I go through a cycle every day has really become clear to me. From my mind really spinning out in the morning til it subsides and sort settles down in the evening. But it is usually very painful the first half of the day. So ironic, I really feel like two persons, like “Who was that person??”. Does this mean I’m enlightened during the evening only? Haha.. I guess there is a bunch of stuff there though that is not being examined yet, but in the long run it feels good. In the evenings I kind of recognize the silliness of what is going on in my head during the day.
Thanks a lot for the show, I needed this, and had a blast reading it. Keep up the very good work!
October 12th, 2011 at 7:34 pm
Evening Enlightenment, the Gentleman’s Spirituality :D
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
October 14th, 2011 at 7:24 am
hey tom,
heard you guys on ugc and finally got around to checking you out.this angle may be covered in an earlier interview, but was not mentioned here, so i thought i’d throw it out. Ramesh balsekar, student of nisargadatta, says in an interview, “enlightenment is when you realize that there is no such thing”.. in my words, realizing that conceptuality is not reality.reality is the fire of the moving moment, conceptuality is the smoke that is after. falling from the smoke into the fire is the non reversable realization that conceptuality is not real. i dont think more words help. thanks for the oportunity to say this. sam
October 17th, 2011 at 4:14 am
Thanks Sam,
“enlightenment is when you realize that there is no such thing”. Paradoxical, nice definition, I like it.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:02 am
Hahaha yeah that’s me: mellowed out, tipsy awareness :D chillin in the lounge.
And then when I wake up in the morning the mind starts up and messes around again. But whats the problem. It is just what’s happening, and I guess it will just play itself out. Sooner or later the interest will drop.
I listened to Steven Norquist’s SIG talk this morning. There you have a very serious fella, talking about “the true knowledge of enlightenment”. I like it though. Very effective and sort of eeire, emphasizing the emptiness a lot, but I guess that’s really what it comes down to in the end. We all have to be obliterated sometime. Just plain ol’ dead-alive awareness. No room for life or death, just a mechanical appearance of what is. the universe = consciousness. Spooky.
Cheers! ;)
October 17th, 2011 at 4:29 am
I vaguely remember reading about Steven Norquist. You use “eerie”, “spooky” and he his publisher is called Haunted Press. Interesting!
October 17th, 2011 at 10:35 am
Looking for a fart will get you nowhere. Breath deeply and you are sure to find it…
L,
Sid.
October 19th, 2011 at 1:52 am
great “quote” Sid, is that yours?
October 19th, 2011 at 11:28 pm
He who smelt it, dealt it!
L,
Sid.
October 18th, 2011 at 9:54 am
Hi Tom. Just stumbled across this fitting video and thought I would share it :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do_HpqILPLo
I don’t know, who wants existence to be empty and spooky.. I donnu, this video contains some humour though. Thank God for humour. Seems from the Norquist video that he too has a lot of humour too to go with his realization.